I would not go as far as to claim that any teacher cannot teach a class that size, as I also went to Chartier's Vally High in Carnegie,Pa. , & the class size up there dawfs the class size down this way.

It all depends upon the teacher involved, and how much willingness any given student shows to want to learn.

Like I said before, I had some really fantastic teachers along the way, & as well as some equally great professor once I hit college so not all are lemons.

I have seen similar data to support etoothman's position. The fact is, public school teachers are not qualified to do anything else because, if they were, they would be doing it.

Now, I've said that there are some quality teachers, mediocre teachers and bad teachers. In my public school, the good teachers were about 5%, mediocre about 45% and bad about 50%. Let's face it, why would someone who could earn $60,000 in accounting or research instead "choose" to be a teacher and earn $30,000?

The teacher's unions have wrecked education in this country. Students are held captive by geography. If they choose a private school, they have tuition costs and their parents still have to pay taxes. Property owners pay the school taxes. We should switch to a mix of property/income taxes to pay for schooling. The money should follow the student. Schools should compete.

A free market will ensure that the cream rises.

Government runs nothing properly.

When high-school seniors take the "Scholastic Assessment Test" they are asked to specify the field they plan to study in college, with the option of choosing "undecided." This allows their test scores to be tabulated according to intended field of study.

The results of these tabulations show the prospective education majors received the lowest mathematics scores out of all ten discipline choices—including "undecided"—every year between 1978 and the present. They were only slightly better on the verbal portion of the test, sometimes rising from last to next-to-last place.

While i disagree with you two on the bailout, I could not agree more on your breakdown of our states public school system. Vouchers should absolutely be used. Private schools far and away beat public schools when it comes to educating the child. the only thing i don't agree with is: "Why should teachers, who generally graduate at the bottom 10% of their college class, have lifetime job security and no evaluation of their performance/results?"

There are absolutely no facts backing this statement up. you cannot lump every public school teacher into this category. There are some lazy useless teachers out there. But there are also many who are extremely capable and talented and probably smarter then most people posting on this board.

But you are correct, our public school system as a whole is broken....

The public intelligence has exceeded the public school capabilities and sadly, many teachers atrophy in this system with no requirements to improve. The union keeps them thinking like a "tribe" (groupthink), which further diminishes their credibility.

The talent pool of the public teacher has diminished. The "stars" get frustrated and leave. The "lemons" thrive, doing minimal and getting raises every year...and administrators can't touch them---fraid of the big bad union.

Look at the average student today. There are kids graduating from college who can properly read, speak or write English! Our high schoolers are too busy texting each other to learn how to write a proper sentence.

We need to demand basic standards for all students. Reading, writing, arithmetic, public speaking, science, history, civics and physical activity should be required of all students.

And we should change the laws to allow professionals in other fields to easily transition into teaching. We should break the teachers union and offer higher salaries and benefits to better teachers. Why now hire a chemist from Dow, an engineer from GE, a scientist from 3M, a writer from the Trib? Think outside the box and hire quality and let the money follow the student.

Break the monopoly!

Teachers, like doctors, have too much control over their numbers and their potential competition. The average teacher is not qualified to do anything more than teach because, if they were, they would not be teaching. I am sure there are many people who go into teaching because they want to teach. But many others do it because they have no other options.

I had a few good teachers in my public school. The remainder were incompetent, slovenly and employed because they all went to the same local college and had a friend or relative on the school board.

Let the money follow the student. Make schools compete for the funds.

Why is no one enforcing the laws that students must attend school on a regular basis unless they have a justifiable excuse for not doing so ( medical, family crisis, etc ), & even if one of these is used, why are they out running the streets in the meantime if something was so drastic as to prevent them from attending school ?

The federal, state, & local agencies can throw all the money they wish into a program, but if these funds are not used right, nothing much will take place in a positive light.

Sphinx...There are no "axes to grind" here, only facts (I hope you read them, I went to all that bother to show them to you. :)

Teachers must be "certified" to teach in public education and successful individuals from industry aren't allowed "in" to teach. The system is stuck in the era is was built for--the Industrial Age.

Where else can you find an organization running with such a homogenous employee pool? It creates a "groupthink" like none other.

Teachers are not bad people, just unconsciously incompetent and the result, a failing system that forced upon the public.

EllisWyatt is right! Vouchers! Competition changes the game.

Or just give me the $8000 p/yr and let me educate my OWN child and lets see who WINS in the end...and guess what? I won't be giving kids cash prizes for showing up! :)

Also, I have no idea what it is that you have against teachers, as it is obvious that you have an Axe to grind for whatever reason, but to lump them all as failures is going a bit overboard.

Any industry will have it's share of flotsam,( people who go through the motions of doing what they are being paid to do ), but I have had many great teachers in my past with at least three who hailed from former professions at NASA, & Berkley, & chose to close out their fine careers as local teachers.

I have no idea what school you attended or what type of teachers you possessed, but mine would push you to learn & think for yourself & I consider myself lucky for having them.

Thanks for the data. You saved me from having to dig it up.

Sphinx

Will you point me to the section in the Bill of Rights where it says "Education, age 6-18, is to be guaranteed to every child in the United States". Failing that, show me the Constitutional Amendment that specifically makes education a right. I suspect that, like many other so-called "rights" (free housing, food, welfare, college education, healthcare, big screen TV's, etc.) this is nothing more than wishful thinking on the part of failures.

The 10th Amendment clearly addresses the issue of separation of powers. Any rights NOT SPECIFICALLY GRANTED TO THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT BY THE CONSTITUTION FALL TO THE STATES OR THE PEOPLE. What that means is, if the Founders didn't give the right to the Feds within the founding document, then the Feds do not have the right.

"Abe, there are two careers open to people who have failed at everything else: politics and schoolteaching".

Do not read: Comprehensive testing 3 years ago: State of WV public education ranks 44th; 78% of 8th graders scored 'basic or b-e-l-o-w' in reading; 82% scored basic or b-e-l-o-w in math; Costs of failing to educate all those children – over $8000 p/child.

Yeah public school and go Cameron...that new school being built will really improve things.

According to College Boards re: students entering into different majors in College: Who scored the lowest on Math SAT Exams? A. Mathmatics & Science Majors B. Language & Literature Majors C. Education Majors?

Who needs math anyway, right? So, who scored the lowest in Verbal SAT? A. Mathmatic & Science Majors B. Language & Literature Majors C. Future Farmers D. Education Majors

Here'e the kicker--Thanks to the Teacher's Union, no Mathmatics/Science/Language/Literature/OR Future Farmer could TEACH in a school.

Is this: A. Exceedingly frightening B. Exceptinally Stupid C. Awesomely Arrogant D. All the above?

Actually, you are wrong, education for children is not only a " Constitutional right ", but also a law on both the federal, state, & local level.

As to where you have your children attend school is another matter, as it can be public, private ( or even a mixture of the two ), or even home schooled, or alternative schooling, as that decision is left up to the parents.

I recall there was quite a stink out west about taxes being used to send other people's kids to private school, with the final say regarding the issue being placed on a voting ballot.

On the other hand, I do agree that while spending on schooling has increased dramatically, positive results from said spending has not become very evident in grades compared to other nations.

Using public money to fund private education is not a violation of the Constitution. Public education is not a Constitutional right, therefore, tax dollars funding private education is not a violation.

Back to vouchers. If schools had to compete for students like colleges do, perhaps some schools would improve the education and experience they provide. Some would go out of business, of course, and some teachers would be out of work but that is how it works in the private sector.

Why should teachers, who generally graduate at the bottom 10% of their college class, have lifetime job security and no evaluation of their performance/results?

We have increased educational funding ten-fold and outcomes have not improved. Time for change.

We now pay high taxes to a carnival-like system w/clowns who have no skills to "inspire" our kids to learn. And circus ringleaders--as Principal Cain--who are "happy" about it.

Also Mr. Jim Davis--Your fellow "dems" are under the circus tent.

Any Dems acknowledging a failing public education NOW is sort of like Barney Frank advising us on how to 'fix' the economy.

Those directly involved in making the problems should have no part in the solutions.

So now, we have to bribe kids to go to school & earn good grades ?

Whose brilliant idea was this anyways & exactly who will be paying for this program ?